re: What's a

Hey Paul :) My joints have started crackling and snapping a lot lately :) Do you think I could be developing some of these "dry joints"
:)

(Join the club "creaky". And if ypou don't keep a "dry joint" don't store the botles on the bottom shelf as it takes too much knee bending to get to them. -PZ)

re: What's a

Sure, a $110 may seem a huge amount for repair work...on any computer, but, and it is the 'but' part that really gets you....the Techies do 'charge'..... by the Hour, really.
Looking for a 'dry-joint'.....may take longer to find, and they (the techies0 are entitled to be paid........for their 'time'.
On the other hand, it is equally.....just as easy, maybe easier, to go out and find another motherboard.......of the same CPU capability/rating.
You just might wind up.......with a computer which is a bit more upgradeable than the old one, therfore it should last a bit longer, too.
Best place to look...for one, is at your Local computer swap-meet.
There is always someone there...who has a multitude of 'stripped-down' computer components.
But, be well warned here, you're still buying something....that used to be someone else's 'problem'.(The reason these old computers got stripped down....to begin with!)
That's right, you might be getting another motherboard....with an unknown 'dry-solder joint', and, you're back to Square 1.
When buying another Motherboard, always keep this notion in mind........."How upgradeable is the new Motherboard, in Years/Technology?!"
If it is 'Vista-compatiable', THEN, it will DEFINITELY be 'Windows 7 ready!'
And,Oh, by the way, "Windows 7".......can be altered.....to work as like XP. (Yeah, it has this same 'option' as like Vista!)
Unfortunately, like Vista, "Windows 7" can NOT be used.....as an Upgrade OS. (In other words,....to jump from XP...straight into 'Windows 7'. It has to be a 'fresh/clean installation', PZ, just like one has to do with Vista. It also strengthens my 'assumption'......that 'Windows 7' is using the same platform/code as Vista. You, however, can DO an 'upgrade'....with 'Windows 7'....IF you already have "Vista" installed, which does compound 'my asumption' even further.....that these two are indeed using the same platform/code!)
As always....'maxxing your computer out' (in my book,anyway)....is also a good way......of prolonging the 'upgradeability'.....of any/all computer.
Most will rather choose the 'Minimum System Requirements'....to suit their Budget (in their minds, that is) and, doing so, are TOTALLY dumbfounded!........as to 'why' their computers DO eventually fail, big time!
To those who do have this 'mind-set'........if you want a computer that certainly will handle everything you want to throw at it, MAX it out!
You'll be cursing yourself....if you don't, wishing that you had indeed 'maxxed' it out.
If my computer holds out that long.....being 'Vista-compatiable'........mine's good for at least another 15 years!
How much of a 'life' does yours...have left?
1 year?
2 years?
6 months?!!!!!
If the 'latter'..........it's high time you start thinking of doing a complete overhaul....on your computer.

re: What's a

if i have a dry joint how long do i keep my soldring iron on the spot for?? as im trying to do it my self for the fist time

(Soldering is best done quickly. Have the iron hot, melt the solder on the joint then remove the iron. -PZ)

re: What's a

Me find cookie in my system. Me eat cookie and shock my tounge. Me hurt. Ouch.

P.S. Me hate Big Bird!

re: What's a

i think yous stupid for saying thjsi on puclic stime arrse

re: What's a

A similar problem has occurred to my amplifier, which is a shame, then again it's been in service for.. 33 years now. In most cases nowadays it is cheap to get a replacement board (if the board is new). I can only think of a few cases where finding a dry solder joint is better than just upgrading the whole lot, and those few cases are classic machines, like Z80s etc.

re: What's a

On most electronics today the type of solder can make a big difference.
Older electronics used 60Sn-40Pb solder, and some used acid core.
Most electronics today use a lead free solder with 99Sn, 0.3 Ag and 0.7Cu. Use the right heat and you will get a good connection with this lead free solder.

re: What's a

wow i get it now its just before we had no idea thanks

re: What's a dry joint

can some one help me 4 my school project please thanks steph xx

(What's your project Steph? -PZ)

re: What's a

My surround amp developed a dry joint affecting the centre channel. It cost me $150.00 to fix but as i'm not a technician i took it to the experts to be fixed. One thing i always do if i do an installation of any domestic sound system is to buy a small fan just big enough to move air over audio gear a bit faster than normal but not too big so that it sounds like a cyclone. This cheap option ($10.00) helps stop a lot of heat induced faults or reduces them dramatically. Heat is an enemy of any electronic gear and as i always do this, even with my own gear, i rarely have a problem. The centre channel problem is the second fault with my surround system in 7 Years, something i can live with. While extra cooling wont guarantee an end to all faults like dry joints, your gear will run a lot cooler. A $10.00 fan is cheap insurance and a lot less expensive than a technicians fee. I use this analogy. If it's 40c outside and you're as hot as hell, you can't function as well as you would like. The same goes for electronics. Cheers Gang Andy :) :)

re: What's a

Dont forget if you do the soldering yourself, too much heat and cooking the joint can also create a DRY JOINT, a (crystaline) joint which may have a high resistance causing low conductivity.
Time to stop using underarm deo.
Frank:-)

(Good point Frank. In general, unless you know what you're doing, leave the soldering to someone who does it on a regular basis. -PZ)

re: What's a dry joint

In the last paragraph of your excellent description Paul, you eluded to the vexed question of what is obviously a manufacturing fault showing up outside the warranty period. I've always believed that the vendor should take responsibility for any fault that has obviously existed from when the product was new, no matter when it is discovered.
I'll hasten to add here that it's also important to be pragmatic. If a product is near or at the end of its useful life, then I■d suggest that it's not a fault because it went the distance.
However, end of life aside, our consumer laws state that a product must be "fit for purpose" or you are entitled to some form of compensation, e.g. free repair, replacement etc. I would suggest that a motherboard with dry joints is not "fit for purpose". If you extrapolate this, it means that Microsoft should have given away every copy of Windows ever distributed, but that's another story.
If a vendor refuses to assist because the product is out of warranty, the only "civil" means of perusing it further is using the free processes of our consumer laws or the expensive processes of our legal system. Unfortunately, unless a point of warranty or product fault is going to cost you thousands of dollars, it's not practical to pursue the matter legally.

PS. I think that "dry joint" aptly describes a pub with no beer.

(Thanks Ken. It's funny that you should mention that because it's a problem that's vexing me at the moment. We own a notebook that has exactly such a fault, yet the manufacturer refuses to correct it. Are you listening Apple? -PZ)

re: What's a

aaagh .... from an old techy...
Modern motherboards very seldom have dry joints ....
Sadly it is often a diversion from the repairer that he hasn't done anything other than reseating/cleaning all cable connections and the fault comes good.
Only way to check this is to get the repairer to show you the "repaired" dry joint so you can see the new solder join.
Unfortunately that means the repairer has to physically open up the computer to show his customer.
In my case ....
I leave computer open and when customer comes in I show him.
Truthfully I doubt whether most computer repairers own a soldering iron these days and if they do they don't know how to use them properly without creating dry joints themselves.
aagh well ..

re: What's a

This website is not exactly helping me with my homework, I need to find out how a dry joint occurs. This website has not helped me what-so-ever. KG359@hotmail.co.uk

(Sorry Jimbob. You could try looking at the Wikipedia entry on Soldering. But what I said in the answer still stands as the most common causes of a dry jpoint. -PZ)

Dry joint

I had to pay $105 to get my motherboard repaired because of a dry joint.

re: What's a Dry Joint?

Well, over many years i've been sticking the hoover in py pc and i bin told not to.. i asked why and i was told about dry solder joints and they cause big problems. so i was referred to this page, A+++ and my solution is a can of DRY AIR. costs about ■3 in most Mapline Electronic stores ;)

Regards,
Jr

re: What's a dry joint

To find a dry joint and repair it is a good feat.
What is the alternative? New (or second hand) motherboard. If exactly the chipset was not available the operating system would need to be reinstalled (and backed up prior). Can the CPU, RAM be transferred (power supply adaptable)? Drivers available?

A complete rebuild would probably have cost more.

I would be happy with getting my system back in the same condition it was when it worked well. Price, the price equates to just the purchase price of a new motherboard, not installing it. I would not grumble at all.

Matt

re: What's a

I'd use Glucosamine for dry joints.

re: What's a dry joint

for the older ones of us here....
a dry joint is not a pub with no beer nor an electrical connection thats not connected. Its a thing that sticks to your lips when stuck in your mouth.....

re: What's a

I have been in this business for 10's of years.....
80-90% of fixing a fault is finding it. (Particularly if it is intermittant)
That takes some experience.
Repairing it is generally easy.
$110 is perfectly reasonable.
Let them find one in your car and see how much it costs.

re: What's a

Hi Barry,

I'm a self taught Tech Head.

From 1998 i've repaired that many M/B's and game consoles it's not fun any more..

(Think back to earlier days of the PS2 & Xbox people were paying $200 plus to modify their units, I'll go back one further PSX & PSone, my whole outlay was $2 per, and took a total of 5 minutes for installation. Customer walked away $35 shorter in their pockets, but very happy indeed! so do the maths)

$110 is a good and fair outcome, I would have invoiced around the same.
And Barry now enjoys his much loved PC again knowing the work undertaken carries a warrantee.

Cheers

re: What's a dry joint

A pub with no beer.

re: Can "dry joint" happen in older boards?

Is it possible for an older board to experience a dry joint when there was none previously?

It's a Chaintech (3 yrs old) with AMD Athlon processor. I am experiencing the exact symptoms described here. It is especially sensitive to the vibration symptom while playing music or walking across my hardwood floors. I have ruled out case shorts and power supply problems. There was a new hard drive upgrade and all cables and connectors were checked and rechecked (even reconnected to make sure the connections were proper).

So, is it possible for a board to have a dry joint when there was none previously?

(Yes, it certainly is. A dry joint can be just borderline, but over time the solder crystalizes and eventually goes open circuit, or intermittent. Even the vibration in the device can cause the joint to become a problem. There are other possibilities too. For instance, you can crack a track on the PCB and have it present as an intermittent fault. -Paul Zucker)

re: What's a

as the computers junk anyway
get a new one !

re: What's a

I am a technician for a contract electronics company and repair pcb's on a dailey basis. I would say that $110 is a reasonable perice to pay for having a dry joint fixed. A dry joint coould take anything from a few second to several hours to find and on high density component require alot of skill.

re: What's a

$110 is a bit too much for a dry joint. If u would have taken it to someone whom you knew with experience in electronics, you probably would have gotten it done for free. Fixing a dry joint is not that big of a deal and neither is finding it. All that is used here is just a bit of soldering coil and a soldering iron which come to a cost of around less than a dollar if u already have the soldering iron. However, companies do charge by the hour and depending on how much the company charges...well, do the math.

re: What's a

I'm am only 16. I'm a nerd who has a soldering iron. I did an electronics course when I was 15 at my school. They showed me how to find a dry joint and how to fix it. I can now fix a dry joint. It is very time consuming finding it I agree. But with 10x Magnification classes, a multimeter, soldering iron, solder remover it would only cost me $2 to do it. $110 seems very exspensive.

re: What's a

never repair a mother board-u have just paid for a new board and got your old shutter with solder on a bad join.dude tell repair dude ill pay only half even at $50 its to much you will know better next time

dry joint?

Since most technicians have to go to TAFE for at least 3 yrs p/time to get their qualifications and often have to spend a lot of money buying equipment so that they can find problems like the one you described, then $110 for something that may have taken 1-2 hrs to find is not unreasonable. They have families and have to eat too. Some might even have mortgages. After all a plumber can charge you $75 an hour for unblocking your dunny

re: What's a

Replace the mainboard may be a good option if it is a fairly current model but what if it is an older one. The options then would be find second hand similar model if available and save $50 on the repair option ,(and spend $20 on fuel running about to find it.)or upgrade at a cost of about $500 or so. Seems to me $110 may be considered a bargain if upgrade was the only option then.

re: What's a

im surprised they would bother trying to find a dry joint on a motherboard, they are usually 4 or 6 layer pcb's with high pin density ic's that would be incredibly difficult to solder much less find the fault... and at that type of price, it's similar price to a cheap new motherboard.

re: What's a dry joint

To pay over $100 for a repair is a lot of money.
With a bit of understanding how the computers work a new or 2nd hand motherboard could have been bought for less. To change a mobo is easy - all info available through the net.